All star Game

[Sundevil52]

Open honest comments that can be worked through would be appreciated

yea well so would using your real account

Yep I could but some don't want to hear the obvious and would blame outside interference and that is the only thing you can quote from my comment?
So why don't you use your correct location instead of saying 'your mum's house'?

Outside observer

To be fair, i am pretty sure 90% of the regulars who frequent this board know exactly who #11 is, and where he lives.. so he probably has no reason to identify himself and further on these forums (after all, most of the visitors here are from within our league)

And to answer your earlier post about officiating. I don't really think it is the standard of refereeing that is the problem here in WA, it is more the lack of referees. There are courses run to qualify people to take the field (Last year was just before the season got underway) so that players can help fill the refereeing gaps (We only have a handful of non-affiliated referees), and I think there in lies the problem. Alot of guys are playing a game, and refereeing a game as well in one day. Not that I think it is all that common, but some guys would be tired after playing and then reffing a game and some stuff might get missed. Basically haveing more referees able to take the field would help the league immensely. I also think some of the younger, less experienced refs sometimes forget we do not use NFL definitions. Which can lead to a bad call, and the problem I go into below. I am not sure why this happens, i would have thought it should be something really drilled into the younger/newer refs to be aware of, but I do see it happen alot (I used to see it when I played in QLD a little bit as well, so it isn't just a WA thing).

I think another problem over here is there is a very vocal minority who will get stuck into referees over what they think is a bad call. It is one thing for a captain to ask a ref how he interpreting something, it is something else to have a player aggressively approach a ref telling him he has no idea (or something to that effect). I do think some of the younger referees get intimidated by this behaviour and become a little flag shy for fear of another confrontation. Some teams are worse than this than others.

[nocoverup]

Thanks for the reply.
What would it matter who i was if something constructive can be done?
If there are a vocal minority causing the confrontations then what is the league doing about them? What are the teams doing about them?
If a captain can ask a question properly at the proper time then fine but even they don't need to question a call, it is up to the coaches of the league to know and understand the rules and interpretations and pass this onto the players, especially captains, it is not the official's role to do this and coach the team the rules. This is why we have accreditation courses for coaches to know and understand how to coach people, but it isn't until Level 2 Coaches course that rules are discussed.
The most important part of the rule book isn't the rules but the first few pages that talk about ethics and code of conduct. The league, the teams, the coaches, the players and the officials must be on the same page as to how the game is played. If you aren't then you will have a problem attracting officials first and foremost. Who wants to learn the game in a passionate manner only to be abused on the field? (of which has nothing to do with the game.) I wouldn't for sure. It would be a safety hazard of which I wouldn't be prepared to take in a workplace and no one has the right to be abusive or confrontational.

Outside Observer

[Sundevil52]

I agree with everything you are saying here. As I am a player, I am not sure if the league or officials have any set plan of dealing with the players that behave like this, I haven't heard of or seen any action being taken at a officiating, league or club level. (barring one player being ejected form threatening a ref and a couple of flags in our semi-final vs the broncos - correct me if I am wrong, but is that what a couple of the flags were about??). Personally, I would like to see players who are over the top penalised, and if they persist ejected from games.. but that is just me, i am not sure how the rest of the league feels about it. I know a lot of what gets said to the refs here comes of frustration, but a lot of the time, the players I see doing the most arguing and carry on, have got it wrong..

Like i said earlier, I think the standard of refereeing is pretty good here, and the majority of the refs (even the guys who play, and are on teams that could benefit from certain teams losing) are very fair and unbiased. This season just been, I do not see a whole lot of blunders from referees, and the one i thought where blunders, where usually missed calls after a ref received from flak from players.

If we had more referees, and referees who were a bit more confident in their calls, we would have a really good level of officiating here. Of course.. this is all just my opinion.. I am sure plenty of people have differing opinions.

[FatSketty]

If a captain can ask a question properly at the proper time then fine but even they don't need to question a call, it is up to the coaches of the league to know and understand the rules and interpretations and pass this onto the players, especially captains, it is not the official's role to do this and coach the team the rules.

As SunDevil mentioned we have several player refs/young refs/inexperienced refs/etc etc, some refs are more familiar with the rules/interpretations/definitions than others (especially if they aren't taught until the level 2 course). A lot of our team captains are also part of the team's coaching staff - most captains know how to talk to refs, and when to drag their other guys into line.

We are not the NFL. We are not the NCAA. Hell, we ain't even at the level of most High School leagues in the states. Sometimes a ref gets the call wrong and fixes it, sometimes they get it wrong and refuse to fix it, sometimes they get it right and we think they've got it wrong. As long as the communication is respectful and quick (so as not to delay the game) I don't think there is any reason to get our knickers in a twist about who's allowed to talk to who.

In 95% of circumstances where I am talking to a ref about a flag it is to find out exactly what the flag is for and who the penalty is on (as numbers are rarely seen/called). Rarely I question the call because I think it might be wrong and am just seeking an explanation of why the call was made - not 'arguing the call'.

There is a league wide movement, from players and refs, to reduce the amount of bickering and arguing of calls that has taken place in the past. Obviously harassment, confrontation or threatening officials is taken seriously as well - though perhaps not uniformly (different refs have different tolerances)

[nocoverup]

Well to put bluntly the refs need to be tough on those that are over the top and at some point in time I believe they have done so but from what I hear amongst the traps is the WA Board let the officials down in protecting the officials and allow abusive players back on to the field after half a game after the player is ejected in the first quarter. If this is true then why become an official? No official needs to put up with any confrontation or abuse from a player at an amateur level of sport. When an official has been tough on this conduct and ejects or penalises players the coach then complains to the league and the league actually listens to this and acts on the coaches behalf. Why? Again it is perceived that the officials are more of an annoyance rather than a team part of the game. A necessary evil is what they are perceived. This perception creates division and is the leagues responsibility in stamping this out. It starts at the board level and filters down.

So a good question to ask is this. What percentage of registrations should there be to then have non club affiliated officials? When you can determine that then you have a goal to reach in claiming full time officials. For senior games only 2 states use non club based officials. These states reach a target of 5% or more of registrations for officials. By my calculations the WA target then should be 14 non affiliated officials in a season - at the moment the WA league is at 1% of registrations.

Every coach and player and committee member registered through the league is an advocate for the game and in particular the officials. If you have people with low tolerance for officials then why keep them? They are not helping recruiting for the most vulnerable people in the league who tend to not have a right to reply to these so called know it alls.

Now on the last post you say you want to find out what a penalty is. Then all a player needs to do is wait for the Refs announcement. He will be telling the crowd, players and sideline people with his announcement just like in the NCAA and NFL. As to why it was called should that matter? A hold is a hold and an illegal use of helmet is just as it is said. If you are serious that you want to learn better then in the middle of a game is not the time nor the place. If it is desperate then the Head Coach can request a conference, but this is normally reserved for enforcement of a penalty and not to clarify or challenge a particular call. If true learning is required then put in a game report you need something clarified from the officials and they will gladly respond in writing or even make a meeting time, I am sure of it. When a report goes in then you know someone is serious about learning, on the field it isn't. To do it on the field is not the place nor time. You could probably get away with asking 'What type of hold was the call for?' You might get an answer if it was a bear hug or a take down but otherwise a hold is a hold. The rules explain what holding is.

The thing is the officials have a job to do even when a penalty is announced and they don't need more distractions even to ask what you think is a simple question. The duty is on the clubs, the players, the coaching staff to be proactive and get to know the rules of the game so that these situations don't occur. You speak about respect then to be respectful get people in your club to pick up a rule book and ask sensible questions during the week or preseason, not during game time - where is the fine line of coaching as against clarifying something?

To emphasise again it is the duty of the coach to know the rules and pass it onto his players, it is the duty of the coach to keep his players under control and it is the duty of the club and league to ensure its registered members are adhering to the code of conduct and the ethics of the game as outlined in the NCAA rule book which your league has accepted in playing to. So to say we don't play NCAA is a false presumption when in fact we use that rule book to enforce rules in the game - not some sort of hybrid.

Outside Observer

[FatSketty]

Mr Coverup,

While I agree with what you're saying in principle I think you need a reality check.

We are NOT in the NCAA. Yes we use their rulebook but our refs/players/fields/scoreboards/chain crews/finances etc etc etc are in no way, shape or form in the same league as the NCAA. And for the record we do use 'some sort of hybrid' rulebook - though we are bringing it more in line year by year (the major rules are largely the same of course, it's little nitpicky things that are changed). This happens across the country, eg QLD disallows cut blocking, that is not an NCAA rule.

My interest in knowing which player committed which type of hold is for the sake of learning, and yes it would be better done off the field and preferably not during the game at all. But if I have a guy that keeps giving up ten yards for holding (btw the player numbers are rarely called, but on asking the official can generally say 'Your left tackle') then we can prevent that guy from committing the same penalty consistently throughout the game. You will probably think "well your coach should take him off and teach him how to block properly, or you suffer the consequences of continually being flagged", which is a fair enough point - but then the game drags out into a flagfest, the ref gets tired of throwing the flag, the player continues committing the penalty without any true understanding of what's happening, the opponent gets sick of being held and takes a cheapshot and my left tackle is left with a bruised left nut !
OR
The ref can quickly say 'your left tackle is grabbing the outside of the shoulders', I can tell the guy to keep his hands inside because he's grabbing the outside of the shoulders, he learns, the game continues, the defenders are allowed to play their game properly, the tackle learns what he was doing wrong and doesn't have a limp after the game.

At the end of the day we're all there for the same reason - to be involved in an enjoyable (successful or not) game of football and improve on ourselves each week of our career. There's plenty we can do to improve our player-ref relations, I don't disagree with your ultimate goal by the way - just some of the intricacies. I think some formal policy/procedure for dealing with abusive players definately needs to be in place at a league level (ie outside of the NCAA rulebook) as well as something between the teams and refs association members to have some sort of constuctive match review process (and not a blame game/scapegoating exercise).

[FatSketty]

Well to put bluntly the refs need to be tough on those that are over the top and at some point in time I believe they have done so but from what I hear amongst the traps is the WA Board let the officials down in protecting the officials and allow abusive players back on to the field after half a game after the player is ejected in the first quarter.

I've never heard of an ejection being overturned during a game (at least not in the last few years). Some refs used to send players off for a period of time to cool off - perhaps this is what you'd heard about?

So a good question to ask is this. What percentage of registrations should there be to then have non club affiliated officials? When you can determine that then you have a goal to reach in claiming full time officials. For senior games only 2 states use non club based officials. These states reach a target of 5% or more of registrations for officials. By my calculations the WA target then should be 14 non affiliated officials in a season - at the moment the WA league is at 1% of registrations.

Realistically we need closer to 25 (IMO) to have flexibility for availability and to prevent burnout. Pretty sure we have a longer season than most other states (14/15 game reg season plus playoffs).

The thing is the officials have a job to do even when a penalty is announced and they don't need more distractions even to ask what you think is a simple question.

I have been an official and never had a problem with simple questions. Arguing is a distraction. To each their own...

[The#11]

just to add to wat skett has said... i understand that players coaches and teams have responsibilities but so do the refs aswell... and from the prospective of a player and someone who has attempted to coach on the sideline... what do refs expect when holding calls are continuely called and yet the ref cannot give you a number of the offender... if you are watching the play and see the foul occur surely you can at some point see his number? weather that be during or at the conclusion of play

i have always agreed that refs cop alot of unneeded critisicms at times and they should be supported and protected better for the benefit of the league however this is also a two way street. how can anyone respect a ref who believes himself to be above it all and in turn treat players and staff with disrespect and for that matter have player officals who preach certain rules as a ref and then go on to blatantly break the same rules? for the most part the referring has been at a good level however a select few from both the offical side and player coach side bring us all down

[nocoverup]

Well I think you are mistaking quality of game and the money generated against the rules and their interpretations. While the systems of setting up the game are different to the USA the rules are the same, therefore the applying of the rules are basically the same in each country with some slight differences on where duty of care lies for participants during game time and such - the standard of how players here execute the rules as against the USA players is also a change. Remember there are different divisions in USA that use the NCAA rule book and they are working at making all interpretations the same across a country of millions of players (ok hundreds of thousands) Roger Redding the rules guru was employed to see that this happens and he has put out some great videos to ensure officials around the world even look at the same interpretation of the rules. What you are also mistaking is athletes in a school system as against those playing for a heap of fun and are not extreme athletes seen on TV but the NCAA rule book is the same. The playing rules are the same.

Agreed Qld have had a change of rule but GA has had that pulled into line with the rest of Australia but in the main AGOA have published a set of modified rules under the GA banner and 2010 I believe is the implementation of those modified rules at state level, all states are on board with this.

Now people want to know who committed a foul, yes all well and good but did you notice in your WA Perth Blitz youtube videos that you have numbers on the back and front? Look at NCAA and NFL jerseys and look at how many numbers are on the jersey. Australian jerseys have only 50% of the numbers as the USA one and clubs cost cut and then you blame officiails for not getting numbers? The other is the official is actually doing a great job at locating a penalty and determining its impact and then go on with officiating the game rather than stopping and trying to locate the number of the player and missing other well deserved penalties that may be safety related or even offset the other penalty and may even bring back a big play or score against you. What would you then say if they stopped officiaiting after the first flag? Bet there would be an uproar in a close game or even grand final. Well done to the officials for doing their job. Now I agree with saying a position to the captain but it should not be a story to the captain of what was done wrong and why it was called. The captain as you quite rightly put can then chat to those 1 or 2 players and give a reminder cmon guys keep ya hands inside and careful the officials are watching. So yes as simple as that but it should not become a time to justify the officials call of what the player did wrong. What he did wrong was penalised and that is it. Essay over next play in less than 60 secs.

Officials have responsibilities yes and they have an officiating job. Let us make sure the roles are very clear on what your job is on game day and have your head in the game for that job. The worse culprits I observe are assistant coaches mouthing off to opposition players and officials. Where in the rule book does it allow them to do this? No where. They have a job to get the next play in or to be talking to their part of the team and preparing them for the next series they are on. Really any other communication to an official is ignored to a point or any type of unsportsmanlike conduct is penalised for its worth and if flagrant then ejected. There should be a healthy respect for each persons role and not overstep into each others territory on game day.

Now as a reality check I think you need to get yourself exposed to other states and their officials. All participants know when they over step the mark and all participants know they can put in game reports, even on officials. Game reports on officials conduct and mannerisms do get addressed and officials do pull their heads in where needed and officials have been reprimanded for poor communication, if substantiated. That exposure includes your officials and some of that started in 2009 with a coaching of the rules by 2 qualified AGOA officials. Did all the club officials attend? If they didn't and someone else didn't make a 'make up' course before the season began then they should not have stepped on the field as they had no accreditation as per GA directives.

Yes I have heard that a player returned late in the game after being ejected. This has come from a couple of avenues a few months apart, not a cooling off period for a hot head.

14 officials would be a minimum - in reality it would be more like 38 officials, 25 is a happy medium to reduce burnout - 2x5 man crews for 2 junior games and a 7 man crew for 4 senior games totalling 38 fresh faces for each game and no official doubling up. Running a 6 man crew is like running a 5 man crew there is no extra advantage gained from having 2 deep wings sitting on the sideline as to 1 BJ in the deep on a 5 man crew. So for better bang for you buck crews should be 5 or set a bigger budget and run a 7 man crew for seniors.

Also let's not confuse the 2 accreditation courses. The AGOA course discusses rules and interpretations and its main focus is on definitions of the rules from the start, even pre entry for the club official. The Coaches Level 1 course has no rules knowledge and does not discuss rules until Level 2. Then when it does get to Level 2 Coaches then say we already know the rules so why should we be going through them? The thing is to help train and execute manouvres the rules knowledge should be in the Level 1 course before a coach becomes a know it all.

I think I will leave my commentary there from the outside and let you guys ponder the comments into the future but a good realistic look at treatment of people needs to be done for the sanity of the sport.

Outside Observer

[FatSketty]

Well thanks for your input Mysterious Stranger - intelligent and reasonable discussion is always welcome here
Mind you so is the occasional smackfest

Sorry, yes I did misread your previous post about it being the Coaches L2 that covers the rules. Personally I think coaches should have a pretty firm grasp of the book before starting their L1 (and not just from watching TV!).

When I am saying we are not the NCAA I am talking about the entire thing from the turf up to the lights and everything in between - including the refs. Now I am not 'having a go' at the refs, I have a great deal of respect for everyone willing to do it - I have in the past and very rarely enjoyed it, I know how difficult it can be and how difficult some players/coaches/sidelines can be to deal with. I am happy to say that these types of problems have drastically reduced over the last three-four years. Now you quite rightly talk about not having experience of other states crews but ours are not at an NCAA level, regardless of what courses they've done or tests they've passed. I myself top scored in our classes ref exam - I was still a shite ref due to not being able to pick out the fouls as they happened. I've experienced the crews at National Championships though, and there is a world of difference - much like the general quality of play.

Anyway I'm sure we're never going to agree on some of these things so thanks for the input, I'm sure it'll be taken into consideration by our decision makers and the officials that visit here (I know of at least one that lives here ) - and hopefully some players can take something away from it as well

Cheers,
FatSketty